Healthcare, Hypocrites, and Haters Who Love to Hate

(**Authors note: some of this post is cited from a previous post on healthcare by Earpiece)

Obamacare is a death sentence!

The government will kill all old people!

I don’t want a socialist system that my kids will have to pay for!

Government needs to practice the Constitution as intended by the Forefathers!

Really?  Is this what the debate on healthcare has morphed into?  In fact, can we even call baseless, fact-shirking rants shouted by professionally trained agitators who crash town hall meetings simply to hurl scripted talking points, with the goal being to shut down civil communication rather than engage in it, a “debate?”

My beef isn’t even with the “professional” Right wingers.  They have an agenda, they’re supported by big business (aka “The Man”), and they’ve been doing the same thing they’re doing now for years.

My disdain is for the working-class and middle-class soccer moms, and Joe the Plumber’s, and Bob the Butcher’s, who wouldn’t pay one cent for “Obamacare” because they make far less than the $250K tax thresh hold, but still indignantly believe that Barack is coming after their “riches” by putting lawless insurance companies in check and helping America’s impoverished have access to a doctor before their condition becomes an emergency.

Somehow, they’ve been duped into believing that they have more in common with the Republican CEO’s who’d happily steal their pensions than with the bank security guard who lives check to check but puts his life on the line daily to protect their money (it’s probably FDIC insured, but that’s not the point).

They continue to call in to radio programs, and leave messages on message boards, and flank picket lines, so they can protest Obama’s efforts to destroy America by making everyone pay taxes for legalized abortions and gay marriages and socialized medicine that will kill their grandma’s, because his dad was a Muslim extremist, and he doesn’t love America because he’s not a citizen, plus he went to school in a madrassa.

Or something like that.

It’s their propensity for and complete comfort with spewing the most ridiculous, inane, non-truths as if they were truths, and at decibels so loud that they eventually become true–in the Fox news court of public perception at least–that gets me.

I would love to debate any one of them!  In fact, I’ll provide a script of my talking points up front (yes, I stole this from Eminem in 8 Mile, but that too is beside the point).

Talking Point 1: Neither you or your kids will likely pay for jack.

The Prez has said several times that most of his health care overhaul will be paid for by already existing revenues. During his June 15th American Medical Association speech, Obama reported that his office had already earmarked $635 billion from the federal budget over the next 10 years for health care.  Much of that money will come from eliminating tax loopholes exploited by the wealthy (like certain allowances for charitable giving, where money is often given to “fake” charities and ends up coming back to the donor), and by cutting programs that waste money (like no-bid contracts to insurance companies, which allows them to price gouge and charge several times more than what’s reasonable).

In addition, Obama has been saying that the only Americans who will likely see a tax increase are those earning over $250K a year–and that increase will only be to the pre-Bush levels of taxation, not a reparations-for-Black-peop le and free-mansions-for-the-poor amount.

The bottom line is, if you’re a rank-and-file Republican who works in a factory while your wife stays home with the kids, Obama aint even talking to you!  And frankly, you probably need what he’s pushing more than I do.

Talking Point 2: This aint nowhere near Socialism, and since when have you been against it?

Neither Obama or Congress is pushing a single-payer healthcare plan (Socialism).  They’re pushing a plan with a public option (not Socialism).

The difference?

The government would have to front the entire cost of a single-payer plan, and there would be no healthcare alternatives, whereas the cost of a public option would be spread around by employers and the gov, and citizens would still be able to keep their current insurance company’s plan.

Since the government will not be paying for healthcare entirely, like the systems they have in Germany, Canada, and Britain, this doesn’t qualify as Socialism.

(**Sidebar: I’ll tell you right now, if this passes, I’m throwing the 2 fingers up to my HMO provider with the quickness! “Hi. My name is Earpiece, and I’d like the public option please.”)

But the question here is why isn’t anyone mad at the multitude of “socialized” services we’ve had for a century or more?  Where are the tea party protesters and town hall meeting crashers who can’t stand the fact that their town has a public library, school, park, fire department, and police department?  I’ve asked Republicans who frequent this very site that very question and have yet to receive a response (I’m lookin’ at you “Kerry Gosey”!).

And why aren’t conservatives and Republicans threatening secession over the fact that their 65+ year-old parents receive Medicare for free, or their military enlisted sons and daughters receive free “socialized” medical care?  Is it because those forms of Socialism were instituted by presidents who weren’t Black, and before there were Latinas on the Supreme Court?  I hate to play the proverbial race card, but that damn sure looks like the Ace to me.

Talking Point 3: Is this what Jesus would do?

My third comment here is really a point about American “goodness”, “patriotism”, and “Christian values”.  My wife and I don’t make close to $250K a year, in fact, only about 2% of all U.S. households do. Still, I wouldn’t mind at all if some of my existing taxed income were used to ensure better health coverage for more Americans, or if even more of my earnings were taxed to create a better, more far-reaching healthcare system.

And that’s not because I think I’m “patriotic”, I’d do that because I’d want someone to do it for me if I didn’t have the means.  I’d like to live in a society where people actually looked out for each other, and lifted each other up, and promoted the “common good”.  I’m not a Christian, but I think this is what Jesus would do.

It’s therefore ironic to me that here we have yet another instance where the people who claim to be the most Christian, or the most religious, are likewise being the least tolerant.

So what if your existing taxes that you’ve already paid on a million occasions are going to be used for healthcare.  Would Christ not want health care for all?  And if some (in this case, about 47 million) couldn’t afford healthcare, would he turn his back on them because of their indigence?

For me, the question isn’t whether or not you agree with Obama’s particular version of health care, the question is whether or not you’d want for your fellow citizen as you’d want for yourself, regardless of whether that person was poor, of a different race, or of a different ideology.  If the answer is no, then I’d conclude you’re not much of an American.

72 thoughts on “Healthcare, Hypocrites, and Haters Who Love to Hate

  1. Well written.

    I have a few questions to ask myself. Setting aside the whole socialistic idea, which I believe America has been for some time as you pointed out and O’Bama seems to be the first one to acknowlegdge it, and I agree on the irony of the fuss over a trillion spent over 10 years and yet we can spend a trillion on banks in less than 24 hours, I have questions of some of the logistics.

    First, I have no insurance. I’m self employed and have pre-existing conditions from birth defects, and no insurance carrier will take me, at any cost. If they are forced to take me with a potential of losing money because of my conditions, how do you feel about the cost being spread to you and others?

    Second, “The Public Option”. This one I find the most bizzare. Not because of it’s nature, but just because of the sheer opinion of the American public on how government public bureacracies are run. Seems everyone like to make fun of the DMV, public works, local government, national government (who can resist talking about the stalements and hot-air coming out of all branches of the government?), the public transit system (inadequate, doesn’t serve where it needs to go, mostly empty buses). Because of my lack of insurance, I have had the occasion to go the county medical low-cost treatment facilities. They are a nightmare. Because O’Bama said so, is a public option going to be miracuosly better than those?

    Third, mandatory insurance. The Governator (Schwarzenegger) has proposed forcing everyone to have insurance. I’m self employeed and barely making it as is. I currently use Target low-cost $10/90 day supply generic for my medications. I have a doctor that is willing to take low cash pay for my visits and treatments. If I am forced to take a insurance carrier, at almost any cost, that could bankrupt me, make not be able to pay rent, purchase my life dependent medications. Do you have any opinion on this?

    Fourth, A suggestion I made in one of my blogs. We could change the current checkbox form of social services medical treatment. I think you mentioned being white would be the way to go for you if you had a choice (forgive me if I misunderstood that) in another blog entry on gay. I’m a white, male, 46. There are NO checkboxes for me. Go to the county clinics, charity services, etc. White male = deserve to die. I suggest we change the checkbox system to something comparable to “Doctors without Borders” – you need it, you get it. Period. No checkboxes. Any opinion on this?

    Jeff

  2. Technically Jeff, I wouldn’t be “paying for you” anymore than I’m paying for the uninsured when they visit the emergency room now, on account of the fact that I don’t make anywhere near the $250K thresh hold.

    In terms of the slum-like nature of the government-run agencies you tallied, and the likelihood of all hospitals devolving into mirror images of them, I certainly hope that’s not the case. Honestly, I hadn’t thought of that possibility. While I’m clearly for an overhaul of the health insurance and care industries, there will definitely be some infrastructural adjustments that could make the first several years of “change” tough on most comfortable Americans.

    As for the cost of insurance, it seems to me that either A, you’d not have to worry about paying for it because you’d get to take advantage of the public option, or B, it would cost you dramatically less than it would today (it wouldn’t be deserving of being called “reform” it was the same as it is now).

    As for the check boxes, I really don’t have an opinion, but to be clear, I’m happily Black.

  3. Man, this is dope. I’m beginning to actually become disgusted (literally sick) of people’s ignorance. I’m so closed to saying that this country just plain sucks. I’m really beginning to wonder what makes this country “the greatest.”

    Sun, I appreciate you laying it out like this. I regularly read conservative blogs, and 1) I have yet to read an alternative to what clearly sucks(!), and 2) I have yet to read tenable responses to what is actually being proposed–a PUBLIC OPTION!! YOU MAY ALL KEEP WHATEVER PLAN YOU HAVE IF YOU’RE HAPPY, BUT IF YOU’RE NOT, THIS PUBLIC OPTION provides NEEDED COMPETITION and NEEDED healthcare coverage for the millions of WORKING poor who cannot afford it. WTF is wrong with this country where we DON’T want our citizens to be healthy?

    Man, if this doesn’t pass, I’m going to make serious moves to relocate in Ghana like Du Bois did! Holla!

    • You’re sure to be welcome in China, where the healthcare system is about what OURS would be like in ten years. I can’t believe you call yourself an intelligent person and still believe everything the fed tells you.

      Even after they told you that Medicare would cost one dollar and it actually cost 300. Can you tell me of ONE instance where the government estimated the cost of something and lived up to it? I’ll settle for one. I have looked up almost every government program since Reagan was a baby and have not found a single one that didn’t overreach it’s budget at least 300%.

      I would be so interested to know what makes your faith in govenment so absolute.

      I don’t think you’re going to China, though. The airlines would have been full for decades with those who swore they would leave if Bush were re-elected in 2004.
      I think you and I both know that the best place to be is ratt where you is, Homey!

  4. I’m Jim Jones I am a friend of Daphne’s from Facebook. I would like to say a few words on each talking point.

    Talking point #1: Talking Point 1: Neither you or your kids will likely pay for jack
    First of all taxes make this country run. The IRS pays the Federal Reserve to print money so that people can continue to borrow and create debts of all kinds. The IRS charges you as a tax bracket in order produce paper since paper and ink is expensive. Therfore, we are paying for the healthcare reform and any other welfare programs before that. As a taxpayer, you already pay into healthcare, social security, and retirement —or so it seems. Meanwhile, the Catholics are saving money by operating as non profit organizations in city-states such as Italy, Washington DC, and England. However, they are using this money to protect their ideologies to dominate world in brain washing. Why dosen’t the government charge them? You also say that we have existing revenues but there are so many poor people on the streets and many failing schools cannot retain their good teachers.

    Talking Point 2: This aint nowhere near Socialism, and since when have you been against it?

    According to the constitution we the people have the right to overthrow an inept government. This country has always operated as a socialist country because we give welfare to people that do not pay taxes. As taxpayers we are the government that provide money for the IRS to give to the Federal Reserve. The elected officials are making decisions on our behalf which are corrupt but nobody is doing anything about it but blogging and our government run media is covering it up. Where are the Martin Luther Kings and Che Guevara’s of our generation that fought for the common good?

    Talking Point 3: Is this what Jesus would do?
    Although free healthcare for all sounds like a good idea I think that everyone should not be guaranteed it. Basically the more you pay into it the better it should be for you since people are cheating the system anyway especially when they do not work. For example, making medicine is not cheap and if im paying $500 a month in premiums for myself and someone making less than me comes along and has the same access to the same medical for free I would be furious. Free medical care for all will never happen because if social security is about to run out how are they every going to guarantee free medical care for us. I am not against everyone getting healthcare but there should be fair guidelines like the Bill of Rights guarantee for us. There are millions of illegals coming to this country and swallowing up all the perks from people that have been here for years. For example, getting grants for businesses while American students are drowning with student loans and are not receiving any kind of help. There should be a better alternative for the elderly and disabled that cannot work and pay taxes other than abusing the single people with no dependants to support them. I think the prices need to go down to make it more affordable for everyone to afford healthcare. If the federal government would investigate more they would find money that is not being used to put it into something else.

    • James, as for the first point, it is highly improbable that a new “public option” tax will be instituted specifically to pay for healthcare reform. Possible but not probable. And if it is, I’m going to hold the Prez to his word that it will be levied on the 2% of Americans who earn over $250K a year and can easily afford to return to a pre-Bush level of taxation (where instead of paying 28% I believe they were paying 31%). So, with the exception of all the “normal” taxes you’ve been paying your whole life (sales tax, gas tax, property tax, income tax, cigarette tax if you’re a smoker, etc.), neither you or your children will likely pay for jack.

      As for the second point, I’m really not sure what your counter point is. Are you against socialized police and fire departments, schools, and healthcare for veterans and the elderly? Are you saying government is corrupt for having created and implementing these socialized agencies and services? I think King and Guevara were against police departments and schools that were segregated, or that acted as bastions of white supremacy, not with paying for non-discriminate structures to educate and protect all.

      And the third point: “I think the prices need to go down to make it more affordable for everyone to afford healthcare.” That’s exactly the point of healthcare reform.

  5. I believe that there is a healthcare tax but it’s not called a healthcare tax. It is in the form of other taxes that we have been paying all our lives. It is also not fair for people making 250k to pay for it all while lazy people having kids all day get to reap the benefits. The only reason why the Democrats won was because they played the race card but Obama is the same puppet Clinton and Bush were for the Federal Reserve who tell congress what to do.

    Secondly, my point is that the government is corrupt because they still create social systems that are bastions of white supremacy. I saw you’re video on Facebook and you said that African American students are thrown in Special Education. Not that Special Education is a bad system, it just needs to be fixed. However, as you already know prisions are being built at the expense of the school budget. Meanwhile, the defense budget is still going up to brainwash people through many avenues including the media and the military to keep people in the dark. While you’re looking for the next macbook the government is writing policies that you cannot fight because you are not even aware of them.

    Thirdly, lowering prices on healthcare seems good on the onset. However, I think it will devalue the goods and services that will be provided. It also includes a clause that gives a doctor a bonus for killing you. Think of what big bad Walmart has done to our comunities. It has destoryed our mom and pop shops and schools. Meanwhile, they continue to get government subsidiares to make everything cheaper than everyone else. I am so glad that New York City does not have a Walmart and I do not like the fact that peole making 250k and above have to pay for it all. The money should come from deregulated religious groups that are operating tax free as non profit organizations right here in the USA. The government will never be fixed because they recruit from the same school of fish as the Facist Bush family and all the Jewish families in the Federal Reserve.

  6. Uhh, James, what are you talking about?? So you believe there will be, in the future, a healthcare tax to pay for healthcare reform, but that, in some parallel universe kind of way, we’ve been paying for it all along??

    You believe that the objective of healthcare reform is to provide care for undocumented immigrants (as you called them, “illegals”) and “lazy people who have kids all day to reap the benefits”, and not the millions of working poor and employed citizens who are denied coverage by multinational insurance conglomerates??? You believe that it makes sound political sense to provide aid for “illegals” and “welfare moms”?? You also believe that people think it’s “beneficial” to have “kids all day” while living in poverty and constantly being without the necessary resources to raise happy, well-adjusted, productive human beings in?

    You believe that healthcare that hasn’t been price gouged by insurance conglomerates, whose only purpose in business is to literally capitalize off of people’s pain, will lead to poorer levels of service then what sick people without access to care receive now, which is nothing? And you believe that there will be a sudden increase in the Dr. Jack Kevorkian death industry as a result of new legislation on healthcare?

    You also dislike Wal Mart because of its success and ability to duplicate itself, but you totally support wealthy individuals who earn over $250,000.00 and probably have far more in common with Wal Mart’s CEO than they do with you or I.

    You live in New York, right? Well if you believe all of this then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you. Trust me, I got it 4 cheap.

  7. Healthcare is a privelege, not a right. Its like college. You may want to go but you have to pay to do it. And the main reason that conservatives dont want a “public” option, is because Government already controls too much. We would like them to just stay out of this. Sundjata recently told me to look into healthcare in San Fransisco. Well, I say look at State run universal healthcare in Massachusetts. Its a perfect example why we shouldnt have a public option, or government run healthcare. Why wont yall listen? Jeez

    • My brotha, did you ever go and look at what San Francisco is doing?

      With you, I tend to ask a lot of questions, and I rarely get answers. You keep telling me the same thing over and over, but you offer no evidence. I’m basing my principles on fact, and if the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?

      • Have you looked into state run healthcare in Massachusetts? And what facts do you have? You keep telling me the same things over and over but theres really no facts. You cant use your opinions as facts and push them on people. Its also interesting that when we have conversations on my blog that whenever I mentioned the other side of African Americans using the race card to their advantage, that you two mysteriously have nothing else to say. What about that? lol

        • Uhhh, Hosey… Brotha, I’ve only been to your blog once (though I appreciate you visiting ours as often as you do). I really have no idea what you’re writing about these days, as the only thing I’ve read from you was that piece you did on healthcare, and your responses to what Sun and have written here.

          But having said that, what, in the damn world, does “African Americans using the race card” have to do with ANYTHING related to healthcare or the contents of this article??

          What is this? If at first your arguments don’t succeed, then try and try again to supplant them with new but equally uninspired arguments?

          And I don’t know if you were talking to Sun or myself when you said we consistently push our opinions as facts…

          Bruh, I’m not going ALLLLLLL the way through my TWO posts on healthcare again, or the countless citations I’ve linked in light blue letters, in an effort to make it easier for those readers who may ask, “hey, I wonder where this author got this statement he is presenting as a fact from?” If you can’t distinguish a fact from an opinion then actually I’m the dummy because I keep engaging you as if you can.

          • All i was saying there was you shouldnt say Im not answering questions posed by you when yall havent answered my questions either. It was mostly directed toward sundjata than you, as he was the one in the conversation.

  8. Good to see you back J Hosey. In terms of my “refusal to listen”, I’m still waiting to “hear” your answers on the multitude of questions I asked you, and those of your supposed conservative ilk, in my healthcare post last month.

    The difference between you and James seems to be that at least he’s being honest about why he’s against healthcare reform: He believes it will be nothing more than aid to the perennial Republican boogeymen: black welfare moms and illegal brown immigrants. I’m surprised he didn’t throw al-Qaeda in there somewhere, but that’s beside the point.

    You, J, claim you don’t want healthcare reform because it will enlarge the gov… Yawn. I go back to one of the original questions I asked you several times that you’ve consistently dodged: Are you likewise against the gov controlling and socializing medicare for the elderly, or VA care for soldiers, or schools, or parks, or public libraries, or roads, or fire departments, or police departments???

    When Bush and Cheney were dramatically expanding Executive powers, with intelligence that has uniformly been proven as wrong and in some cases outright deceitful, and when they were enacting the Patriotic Act, which allows them to suspend Habeas Corpus and strip you of all 10 rights in the Bill of Rights, and when they were sending young men to die for a war that had more to do with enriching their corporate no-bid contractor podnas than 2 inches of American soil, were you blathering about how much “control” the government had usurped and the foolhardy excesses it had taken on?

    And, let me ask you a new, purely philosophical question Hosey (seeing as how you weren’t too interested in my previous round of questions): Why should insurance companies be a part of the health care equation? What natural role do they play in helping the sick become well? Are they doctors? Do they give x-rays? Do they take temperatures? We know they put pocketbooks in the poor house but do they likewise put limbs in splints?

    No. So they, much like you, shouldn’t even be PART of this discussion.

    • It’s funny. I continue to ask the same questions, and I continue to get NO responses from the conservative world. Instead, through circumlocution, they abortively attempt to throw the ball back in my court without answering a question. I keep asking. They keep dodging, and eventually, I accept their tacit acknowledgment that they are arguing an untenable point.

    • Exactly. In a conversation I tried to have with Jerry and others, I proposed a similar line of thinking. All of this talk of death panels is ridiculous and baseless. Meanwhile, insurance companies decide whether you are worthy of care. They act as true death panels. God forbid you be born with a defect. You’ll NEVER be insured, and the decision won’t come from a panel of doctors with your best interest at heart. It will come from an insurance claim adjuster with no interest in offering you care. Let the hypocrisy cease, and let us deal with reality here folk.

      Do you know what the rest of the industrialized world is doing while this nation is arguing against improving the lives of its citizens? Canada and Europe are laughing at us! That’s what they’re doing. They cannot even understand why there is a such a strong opposition to a public option, save for the greed of insurance companies, which are well known to be hugely inefficient.

      • You know what they say, “Life is a bitch and then you still gotta die”.

        If a child is born without ARMS and wants to be a baseball player, do we tax all the baseball fans in order to find a prostethic?

        If a child is a slow learner, do we take a couple of points from each smart kid and spread them over the group of less smart kids so that their grades rise?

        Sometimes you just gotta go with the hand that you are dealt.
        I realize some people actually DO that while others spend their entire lives whining about their misfortune.

    • The difference in gov run healthcare and those services such as firefighters and police and such, is that in most cases you know the people doing all those things. And we need people to do those things. We dont need the Government in Healthcare, its not necessary.

      • Jerry, this is the weakest argument I’ve heard against a public healthcare option.

        The difference in gov run healthcare and those services such as firefighters and police and such, is that in most cases you know the people doing all those things.

        That doesn’t even make sense. Look at what you have to say in order to stick to the conservative side on this issue. We “know the people doing all those things?” WTF? I don’t even know what that means. Do you mean that YOU know all of the police officers, firefighters, librarians, and military? I don’t.

        • When you come from a small town such as myself, you tend to know who is working where. I dont know every single person working there, but atleast Im familiar with them

    • When Bush and Cheney were expanding executive powers it was to protect us from terrorists overseas. All Obama is doing expanding executive powers for his own gain. Trying to find more ways to make him more money, like by trying to get the government in healthcare to get more insured. Its not free for them. He is gonna get more money from us and make them pay for it. Sundjata, I am also a bit angry about you just up and left that debate we were having a couple weeks ago.

      • Hey Jerry, there were never terrorists overseas, that was nothing but propaganda to make you give up your personal liberties in order for the government to amend the constitution with the Patriot Act so that they can watch you naked in your living room lol. Like I said before the media makes all kind of distractions to make you forget about what is really going on under your nose.

      • When Bush and Cheney were expanding executive powers it was to protect us from terrorists overseas.

        Again, this doesn’t make any sense, and more importantly, it has been proven to be completely baseless! Have you NOT heard how much money we spend on this stupid ass “war” on an abstract idea? Are you really believing that reducing the Bill of Rights to a set of ideas in order to attack a country that had NOT given us even a threat of attack has benefited anyone other than those four, major, for-profit, warmongering, privatized military organizations, oil companies, and other multinational corporations in which the Bush family has ties?

        All Obama is doing expanding executive powers for his own gain. Trying to find more ways to make him more money, like by trying to get the government in healthcare to get more insured.

        How?

        Sundjata, I am also a bit angry about you just up and left that debate we were having a couple weeks ago.

        Don’t be salty. If you recall, I offered the last word. Your friend joined in, but she left, and you weren’t responding. In fact, you faded from the conversation before she did. You largely cosigned her ideas without offering any of your own. I’m MORE than willing to discuss these issues, but again, as Earpiece and I continue to urge, we must deal in reality here. It is easier to shoot down ideas than it is to create new ones that will benefit us.

        Again, I ask you: We now currently pay several times more for health insurance than all other industrialized nations, and our healthcare system is NOT the best BY FAR. The healthcare insurance industry is WELL-KNOWN for being inefficient, and currently, this same industry decides the fate of you and I with regard to available treatment. To put it lightly, these things suck ass! What is YOUR solution to these issues? What do we do for the millions of WORKING poor Americans who cannot afford healthcare? What do we do for the college grads who are too old to be covered by their family, but who have not been able to secure a job that even offers healthcare, as MOST jobs do not? What do we do for these people who are OVERWHELMINGLY the majority?

        • Once again, healthcare is not a given right. Those college grads? Most people in their twenties dont want healthcare because they dont think they need it. Why should we HAVE to insure them? How about all those illegal immigrants who are counted in the uninsured? They damn sure dont deserve to be in our healthcare system. You keep saying that the insurance industry is controlling our healthcare decisions, but that is exactly the same thing that Obama wants to do under this “reform” bill.
          As for the debate we were having, you just left. All you said was hey Im leaving.
          So what gives the Government the right to interfere in our healthcare so others can have it?

      • Now we’re getting somewhere Jerry. These are answers, at least.

        But here’s your problem: You give the socialized police and fire depts a pass, and veil it under the guise of, “you know the people doing all those things.” And then you rail against government and hurl more opaque accusations at it.

        However, while the American people do in fact ELECT local and national officials, and implicitly give them our approval to spend our taxes and create services ostensibly for the public good, we DO NOT elect firefighters to put out fires, or police officers to interpret and enforce the law as they see fit. Nor do we have a say in when and where a fire or police dept will be erected in a given community. We let government decide that and we don’t begrudge them, regardless of how Marxist the concept is.

        You (and those of your ilk) sound more like an opportunist than someone who actually can’t stand the concept of federal government.

        And did you say Bush and Cheney told a host of impeachment-worthy lies “to protect us from terrorists overseas”???

        Here is yet another fistful of facts for you: There were no weapons of mass destruction (maybe “distraction”) found in Iraq; there has been no legitimate link found between 9/11 and the Sadam Hussein regime or the Iraqi people; and Haliburton, an energy and infrastructure corporation that Dick Cheney was CEO of until 2000 and likely still has stock in, received not 1 but 2 contracts (possibly a no-bid) from the U.S. Government to build oil infrastructures in Iraq.

        Isn’t it the least bit ironic, Jerry, that the U.S. Government decided it was time to altruistically help Iraq become more efficient with its oil production and transporting capabilities at the EXACT SAME TIME that it was fighting a war against/in the country?

        Man, you’re funnier than 10 comedians!

  9. Hey Earpiece, first of all the healthcare reform shouldn’t affect working people because they already recieve benefits through thier employer. As part of our taxes we already pay for the state run medical insurance and welfare systems. What this healthcare reform is really for is to enhance competition and make all prices fluctuate closer to affordability. Sounds good right? This is the reason why I brougth up walmart. The government pays them a percentage to have prices lower than everyone else. Now let’s put this in perspective. If I am a mom and pop store and im selling a product, then here comes walmart and sells that same product for a lower price plus offers more stuff than im able to provide because they have more space. What happens to me? I go out of business and the school in my neighborhood does not get funded. The subsidiary all goes to walmart. Why is that bad you ask? Because Wal-Mart creates poverty and then it becomes the store of last resort for victims of poverty. They do not even provide enough wages or any kind of health insurance. Is this the kind of job opportunity you want for your children?

    Now let’s imagine a single payer system with this public option. Let’s say the government pays company A to make generic drugs which is what people like to buy because it’s cheap. Does it mean that it works? I disagree with that. I would rather pay a little extra to get the good stuff. Plus by making things cheaper you are cutting out money that could be used for labor, costs for research and development, and everything else that goes into making a product. Thus, putting a company out of business due to a monopoly set up by the government. I thought they took Microsoft to court for trying to establish a monopoly? Does the government have a right to violate its’ own anti-trust laws? If they do then the constitution and the bill of rights is pointless.

    What really needs to change is the guidelines that automatically deny you for goods and services based on your income, race, and family size. Otherwise, you are supporting a new world order by making everything one and the same ran by the government. I don’t know about you but I do not want the government dictating to me what kind of plan I can subscribe to and what kind of medication I can buy. That should be my individual choice. If certain people would stop being careless and end the cycle of poverty by having babies to reap the benefits we wouldn’t be in this mess. Now let’s say you are making 250k and paying for your neighbor’s kids healthcare in the ghetto with 6 kids and they are not required to pay any co-payments. Do you think that’s right? Yes I can afford it but if they are not my kids then it is not my responsibility. The same thing for a single person like myself paying all kinds of taxes and not getting any money back at the end of the year. What is my reward for putting 110% into my profession and not perpetuating the cycle of poverty of my counterparts? It seems to me like the government encourages poverty so that they can regulate prices and wages. Ever wonder why they do not fine mcdonalds for making people fat? I bet they put all kinds of things in the meat to kill people off. It’s called population control. If the wages were adjusted to inflation they would be about $12 an hour? who can live on that while kobe makes about 20k an hour playing a kids game.
    In conclusion, it is your personal choices in life that decide your fate and your social status and don’t expect me to bail you out because youre less unfortunate than me. That’s life, deal with it.

    • first of all the healthcare reform shouldn’t affect working people because they already recieve benefits through thier employer.

      This is simply not true for a very large portion of working Americans. Many, many employers do not offer any form of healthcare insurance.

      The government pays them a percentage to have prices lower than everyone else.

      Is this true? Where did you get this information? Naw, some of the other things you said about Walmart are very true, but I don’t yet see what this has to do with the topic of this post, but I’m going to read on…

      Okay the paragraph about the government running a monopoly is just wrong. Currently there are county and city libraries, and yet Barnes & Nobles and Borders thrive without a hitch. We can even rent videos from libraries for free, and libraries have not been a factor in the downfall of the video rental industry. We have state-sponsored police departments and yet privately-run security companies thrive. My point is that there is no reason to assume that a government offered public option would do anything other than lower the costs of healthcare for us all WITHOUT sacrificing private industry.

      That said, the very nature of capitalism is that it ends–naturally–in monopolies if unchecked. Look at AOL-Time Warner, the recent grab bag buying and merging of banks, cable companies, electric companies, and other organizations that provide necessary home services. We have almost NO choice in where we spend our money, and these companies dictate the rules to themselves, and the prices do not reflect “market” prices, but monopoly prices.

      I don’t know about you but I do not want the government dictating to me what kind of plan I can subscribe to and what kind of medication I can buy.

      How do you feel about some insurance bureaucrat deciding whether you are even eligible for expensive insurance? And, please, THE PUBLIC OPTION IS NOT A DICTATION OF HEALTHCARE COVERAGE BY THE GOVERNMENT! It is triage for all of us who cannot afford or who are not eligible for healthcare by the FOR-PROFIT healthcare insurance industry.

      Now let’s say you are making 250k and paying for your neighbor’s kids healthcare in the ghetto with 6 kids and they are not required to pay any co-payments. Do you think that’s right? Yes I can afford it but if they are not my kids then it is not my responsibility.

      If this is your stance, then perhaps you’d like to pay for your own military, police, fire departments, and schools in the new nation of Jamesia. While you’re at it, be sure to cancel VA benefits because it’s not your responsibility to care for veterans who chose, of their own volition, to fight for this country. Um, and we can cancel social security while we’re at it.

      At the basis of your argument seems to be a misguided belief that the poor are very happy to be poor–that those with no opportunities for upward mobility are very much content with the shitty lives they live. To this, I ask, where in the hell are you getting your information?

      It seems to me like the government encourages poverty so that they can regulate prices and wages. Ever wonder why they do not fine mcdonalds for making people fat? I bet they put all kinds of things in the meat to kill people off. It’s called population control. If the wages were adjusted to inflation they would be about $12 an hour? who can live on that while kobe makes about 20k an hour playing a kids game.

      Now you’re just being a bit ridiculous. Some of the points you have made in this section are valid, but when you string together like this, validity is morphed into spurious conjecture.

      • James, you present the most interesting hodgepodge of semi-facts conflated with unverifiable non sequiturs, and talking points seemingly from both the Left and the Right, delivered in a circuitous, wholly un-linear, and typically disordered fashion, that I have ever seen!!!

        It’s pretty amazing actually. You and Hosey are funnier than 10 comedians! You actually say things I agree with in principle–then you quickly follow them up with statements I don’t even think your bff could possibly agree with.

      • LOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL @ Sundjata.

        Send me a postcard from Jamesia homie. I won’t be vacationing there anytime soon.

        GHAGHAGHAGHAGHAGGHAGHAGHAGHAGHAGHAGHAGHAGHAGHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

  10. Earpiece, I don’t know how you got to the conclusion that all immigrants are black. You’re making this a race isssue when it’s clearly not. It’s an economic issue. You can have a rich black Republican that is against this, does that make him/her a sell out or an Uncle Tom? Also you have terrorists organizations that are born and bred right here in your home land but that is besides the point. We are talking about healthcare reform and i’m against it because I already have mine through my employer. Why would I need a government operated “public option” to destroy the quality of healthcare I already receive. This plan is tailor made eventually to cut off the elderly and disabled population which I strongly appose. I also do not like the fact that they want people making 250k to pay for it all while the rest of the country does not contribute. Which suggests to me that there will be a new tax because how can you charge someone for something that they have not even signed up for? This is why I made the point about paying taxes to support lazy people with 6 kids that have nothing to do with my personal life. Social classes in general have dropped wages and that was not set up by accident. You must have been jumping for joy when Clinton was carelessly handing out mortgages and loans to people that he knew would not be able to pay anything back regardless of creed, color, race, or gender. Now you and I are paying for this with our retirements and our investments. Is that right to you? America is a free enterprise where you look out for yourself and when push comes to shove nobody is there for you.

  11. The government already controls medicare for the elderly, VA care for soilders, schools, parks, public libraries, roads, fire departments, and police departments for the simple fact that you can buy bonds for some of these things. Have you noticed that people beg and cry when their welfare checks are taken away from them? What more mind control do you need to prove that the government has over these people?
    It is true that the Bush and Cheney tried to expand the powers of the Executive branch illegally and why werent they busted or impeached for it? and Clinton was impeached for having sex in his office? It is because daddy Bush is the head of the CIA and he can pretty much get away with anything. Wouldn’t you love that kind of power?

    • James, I’ve been reading through your posts, and I’m not sure exactly how to address you. As I am, you seem conservative on some issues and liberal on others, but I am unable to follow your train of thought as you move from topic to topic, so let’s try to have a conversation in an organized manner.

      Have you noticed that people beg and cry when their welfare checks are taken away from them? What more mind control do you need to prove that the government has over these people?

      This really doesn’t make much sense to me. It surely is not proof of any mind control. And more importantly, I’m not sure what this has to do with the healthcare debate. Please explain.

      • Sundjata, first of all there are many ideas on here that have nothing to do with the health debate including yours. This point was to address the fact that the government has socialized services. How is it not proof of mind control? when you don’t go see your caseworker or violate some condition you will not get a check. Then you start to box yourself in and become an insecure imcompetant person hooked on drugs. So what do some people in the projects do best? they go out and carelessly have sex babies that are taken care of by us tax payers. So what does this have to do with the healthcare system? The next time you see your paycheck stub look at the taxes that are taken out of it for social security, medicare, and other socialized services. These taxes are all being used to create the “public option.” That does not even include the bigger lump some that people making 250k have to pay for in the grand scheme of things.

        • Furthermore, I am neither conservative nor liberal on any issue. I just have strong opinions about issues that affect me. So please do not lump me into categories of conditioned people. I have my own mind.

  12. http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Wal-Mart_The_High_Cost_of_Low_Price/70040809?lnkctr=srchrd-sr&strkid=711862894_0_0&strackid=38801e3368d1fcfa_0_srl

    I invite you guys to watch this investigative report on walmart. It shows you how unfairly the workers are compensated, insured, and how Walmart destroys neighborhoods in lieu of competition that is supposedly creates. I think it essentially creates a monopoly like the “pubilc option” will when everyone’s premiums and medications will go down but so will the quality of healthcare and services when we start bootlegging from China and killing the population.

    • This is just another ply by NETFLIX to sell dvds’ I tried to watch. They wanted me to complete a form for a FREE TRIAL. Then I look at the listings and see this guy who made the flick is nothing more than a Michael Moore wannabe.

      I still can’t find those Walmart subsidy references though.

    • Yeah Sun, good luck with that.

      I now see that this is a war of attrition. Hosey’s main mission is to continue to read from the Bible of Fox talking points, regardless of how many times you debunk his claims or worse, ask him to support anything he says. He’s posting for distance and irritation.

      And my man James means well, I think, but somewhere between his head and the e-pad it just aint coming out in a manner similar to the style you and I are trained and versed in. I kind of appreciate his effort and conviction, but I can’t imagine that brotha ever got anything other than red marks and “Organization and mechanics need work” comments on every persuasive composition he ever wrote in high school English class.

      Sigh.

  13. I’m done discussing this topic. I’ve said my two cents and I will not continue to argue about a bill that congress can’t even figure out. I guess that makes them more ridiculous than us lol. Both of you also have imperfect arguments but nobody is perfert so that’s not our fault. I have the utmost respect for you guys and I do not want to make anyone angry so ill be the bigger man and walk away. I’ll be on facebook now.

  14. It’s not even that Wil. It’s just that we are writing on a blog and structure and organization does not have to be perfect. I have the same credentials as you. But to argue with you the opinions as I’ve heard on C-Span, Geraldo Rivera, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and all the other brainwashing networks is pointless. The bill is not even a law yet and you or I cannot do anything about what they decide to keep or omit. If you are insulting my intelligence because I do not use “professor words” then excuse me for being educated in the American public school system that we both came from. I admit that I do not know too much about this topic but I can go toe to toe with anyone about special education. But we will leave that for another blog.

    • “I admit that I do not know too much about this topic…” –James

      James, I like your conviction. If I was wronger than 2 left shoes I’d want you on my side. Let’s just leave it at that.

    • I disagree when you say tehe is nothing we can do about the bills pending. Were it not for the town halls Obama’s plan would be LAW by now. When the politicians realized that their jobs were in jeopardy because of the concerns of their constituents, they kept going back and revising the bills. Although the House has already passed three of it’s own, they will first have to be melded into one and then that one melded with whatever comes out of the senate.

      We will find out enough about all of them in time to force lawmakers to make changes unless the administration does an end run by having the final bill written SECRETLY and voted on in the middle of the night.

      I am going to stop sweating this stuff, though and hope they pass the ORIGINAL socialist version. When the ship hits the sand I hope to be in a position to make a lot of money buying all the stuff the Obama supporters will have to sell or default when prices, taxes, unemployment, utility bills and interest rates skyrocket.

      Should I be ashamed to rejoice in other people’s misery? What misery/ It would be something the people DEMANDED (according to Obama), so let THEMbe ashamed. I just want to be RICH. BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

  15. I also have a poll on my blog asking if people support President Obama’s healthcare reform takeover. This was answered by me, some of my friends, but most of them were from people I dont know. The results, were 76% for no, only 24% for yes. That should speak volumes

  16. Let me just say, before I get into what Jerry recently said, that I’m glad that you all at least continue to comment on this subject, which deserves our attention.

  17. OH. I just remembered. All you military types out there who fell for the one about how, at retirement, the military would give you FREE MEDICAL CARE for the rest of your life? Well, that works real good, but don’t forget it is the GOVERNMENT that made the promise, not the military.

    Case in point: My healthcare and that of my wife has been taken care of since my retirement, but I had to PAY healthcare premiums if I wanted to choose my own doctors, which I did choose to do. The premiums are not all that much anyway, but here’s the kicker. When I reached age 65 I received a letter from Uncle Sugar informing me that I was INVOLUNTARILY being enrolled in MEDICARE and that my military plan would only pay for treatments AFTER Medicare had paid IT’S share of the costs of my treatment.

    Now, I have been a very lucky man so far, having no major health problems until I was diagnosed with a benign colon tumor last February. Til this day, my total bill adds up to a little over $100,000, of which I personally had to pay less than $100 (co-payments). Medicare paid a large portion and my military plan paid the rest.

    What’s the big deal, then? Well, nobody told me 30 years ago that I would be FORCED to enroll in Medicare in order to get that promised military healthcare plan. In fact, when I enlisted, Medicare didn’t even exist! Not only was I INVOLUNTARILY enrolled in Medicare, but they deduct about $100 per month from my retirement check to pay for it.

    So much for that “It won’t cost you anything” mantra that the politicians always play every time they produce a plan to “HELP” us. Of course, the spiel today is that the money I am paying for premiums helps pay for those PHANTHOM 45 million uninsureds they dream up every time they see a microphone. I would much prefer to use that extra C-Note to spoil SOMEBODY’S grown daughter if not my own.

    The moral of this story? No matter what the Fed tells you, if you believe it you’re a fool or a parasite who “can’t handle the truth”. Just like Social Security began as a safety net for those who NEEDED money in their old age and morphed into an entitlement available to rich and poor alike, just like Medicare was originally estimated to cost 30 billion by 1992 but exploded to more than a TRILLION by then, just like Obama’s plan is estimated to REDUCE the deficit 87 billion in ten years, it will likely grow into a multi trillion dollar juggernaut in five, and no one will be able to afford private insurance and will have to enroll in Obama’s plan ANYWAY.

    Not only that, but the doctor that attends to your general health care needs will be chosen by you from a list provided by the federal government and if you don’t like it you can just lump it.

    I can predict that one day when those misguided souls who THOUGHT they were going to get FREE health care at the expense of those evil rich white Republicans realize that they were SUCKERED by Barack Obama and his handlers, I will probably be laughing so hard that I might drop dead anyway. I hope the government has put in place a FREE BURIAL PLAN by then.

    • Reading your thoughts is draining.

      Dude, your logic is syllogistic. Anything the government tells you is not to be trusted? We can say that for any organization or corporation, so why are you outraged.

      Moreover, you said the most important thing, which is you HAVE BEEN COVERED FOR NEXT TO NOTHING! However you may feel about how that happened (involuntarily), you were covered, which is exactly the point.

      • Who said I was outraged? I am simply poinnting out what I don’t like about Obama’s plans. Wary? Anxious? Hell yes. Outraged. Nah.

        YOU seem to say because corporations and and other organizations are not to be trusted that I should ignore what the government does to me. First of all, no corporation intrudes into my life without my permission or assent. Secondly, I still (so far) have the CHOICE to ignore or refuse any such attempts at intrusion from corporations or organizations. The government doesn’t give us many choices in it’s dealings with us. But to some people that is OK, I guess. Kinda like a small price to pay for all the freebies.

        It is true I was covered for “next to nothing”, notwithstanding the third of my life I had to serve for the privilege, but that is NOT the main point. The main poiint is that I had the coverage FOR NOTHING before the government forced me i nto Medicare.

        What did I get from it? NOTHING. If not for Medicare my coverage would have cost me NOTHING. NOW it costs me NEXT to nothing. Which is the better deal?

  18. PS. You say that you don’t like the “personal” nature of our disagreements, but thetitle of this particular page is about “Haters who love to hate”. Can you be spcific as to whom you are referring, and what evidence of HATE do you see (EVIDENCE, not feelings)?

  19. I’m not sure, Black Indy, what your contentions have to do with the main line of reasoning that I took in this post. Also, I think we’d both have to agree that your senior citizen and veteran status puts you in a very specific category. A category that nearly 100% of the people that the original public option legislation was aimed at wouldn’t fit in.

    As for the current wave of health care legislation that’s being hacky sacked around Congress, I can’t say much about it because I’m not well-versed. However, if we are referring to the original proposals of the Prez from more than a year ago, then I continue to stand by my arguments, which are first, it would have been unlikely that anyone but the wealthy (those annually making over $250K) would have seen a noteworthy tax increase–and even if they did we’d only be talking an increase similar to the pre-Bush levels of taxes. His argument on this is well-documented, and whether or not he would have ultimately stood by it is a philosophical argument that neither you or I can ever actually win.

    Two, the plan was nowhere near anything that could be considered “Socialist.” In fact, most of the people who’ve protested Obama the loudest couldn’t give you a clear, concise definition of what Socialism is, nor could they tell you how it represents the oncoming of the American apocalypse, nor could they tell you why they’ve systematically failed to protest other versions of accepted “Socialism,” like police, military, public schools, paved roads, street lights, public parks, and local libraries.

    Given that you seem to be anti-federal government, perhaps you boycott the thousands of goods and services the fed has a hand in creating or regulating, such as buying fresh, uncontaminated produce from the store, making a bank deposit in an interest-bearing account, flying safely in airplanes, driving safely on the streets, going to the VA hospital as opposed to Kaiser or another corporate hospital, using American money, allowing your kids to eat free school lunch if your family is/was eligible, calling the local police for help, watching the weather channel, participating in the Census or using data from it, accepting no less than the minimum wage, working no less than 40 hours a week, collecting unemployment funds, taking a low-rate FHA home loan, or accepting financial aid for college for yourself or your children.

    Perhaps you are equally outraged with and stand against all of this, because the federal government has a hand in it?

    Third, it is far more in alignment with what Christ stood for to support, even on a general level, the expansion of health care to the poorest of Americans and the taking down of greedy insurance conglomerates. To put it simply, I don’t believe you can truly be a Christian and support wealthy corporate middlemen, with no real role in the health equation and whose admitted objective is to deny coverage to those who need it, while opposing poor peoples aspirations of receiving quality health care. And on this point I have yet to hear anything resembling a legitimate counterargument. But perhaps you have one?

  20. Now, there is no way I can let this revisionism go on without protest.No one has given you a clear definition of SOCIALISM? Wadda CROCK!!! I have given you SEVERAL DETAILED EXPLANATIONS of what I think Socialism is, including the DICTIONARY DEFINITION. It appears that you either cannot or will not even TRY to understand them. I agree you can’t understand why WE feel the way we do, but that is YOUR problem, not ours. I’ll never CHANGE my views just to make them understandable.

    Obama say nobody earning under $250K will see a tax increase? The tooth fairy told me I would get a hundred dollars if I put my tooth under the pillow, too. Technically, Obama is correct. Maybe no tax increase for us poor folks, but he himself declared that utility bills will “Skyrocket” upon implimentation of teh CaP AND TAX law. The CBO opines that there is no way Obama can add 40 million people to the healthcare system unless you raise taxes on a lot of people UNDER $250K. Just becaue Obama says it, does that make it so?

    Can you give us JUST ONE case where anything the government promised us and it came to pass? Anything GOOD, that is?

    YOU can, if you so choose, wish higher taxes on the “rich”. I am not into CLASS ENVY. It is not becoming of someone who wishes to become rich himself. I happen to realize that without the rich very few of us would have jobs.

    I have also explained the difference between police, fire, schools, and other services you and Sundjata call socialist. If you like I will post it again, verbatim.

    Your rant about how we are “anti-federal government” is ludicrous. Most of these these services are authorized by the constitution or laws that are on the books. True, SOME of them I CAN do without or wish the fed would get out of that business, but you just gave a partial list of some things the fed should NOT be engaged in. Most of those things are for the safety of the people. That is a constitutional provision. Health care is not. Your very long and detailed list is great, but can you name one service on that list that would result in a JAIL SENTENCE if you CHOOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE? Don’t say school. I don’t think school is the federal government’s business.

    And bringing CHRIST into it won’t work, either. What if I’m Jewish or atheist? Anyway, I have read the Bible through ad through and can find no part of it that says Christ agrees with FORCING anyone to take care of anyone else. He left that up to the individual and as far as I know, will not punish you if you choose NOT to be a good Samaritan.

    It appears, my friend, that YOU do not understand the meaning of SOCIALISM I have said before, Socialism is where the government makes most of the decisions that influence the daily lives of the people, usually with stiff penalties for non compliance. There is nothing in our system (YET, that is) that forces any one of these programs on us, but Obama’s plan would. THAT is why we protest. SOME of us would reserve these decisions for ourselves. If you want to help others who do not have coverage, GO FOR IT. If you don’t mind, I would like to keep as many of my choices for as long sa I can.

  21. Amazing. I can feel you screaming into your monitor as you punch the keyboard with more force than Dell would ever suggest is necessary.

    First of all, in reading through your 5 posts on this article, you’ve only used the word “Socialist” once before your last post:

    “I am going to stop sweating this stuff, though and hope they pass the ORIGINAL socialist version. ”

    I’m sorry, but I fail to see how this constitutes the “SEVERAL DETAILED EXPLANATIONS” you clamored about in all caps.

    Second, when did I or Sundjata ask you to change your views? I believe all we’ve asked for is an intelligent and concise analysis of the right-wing’s point of view in respect to the 3 arguments I outlined earlier.

    Third, (do you listen to yourself man??) you’re suggesting, I think, that Obama will increase the cost of utilities, like electricity. One, what does that have to do with the oft-stated argument that taxes will rise as a byproduct of health care reform, and two, what source or evidence do you have that he “himself declared” this to be true? To use your own line of reasoning, just because Black Independent says it, does that make it so?

    Fourth, you should definitely repost your argument on how fire depts, police depts, and schools do not fit the technical definition of socialism, which, by the way, is defined as “any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods” (Merriam-Webster online). Hospitals and physicians, like schools, fire depts, and police depts, provide a service (not technically a “good”, nor do they technically “produce” anything) that is regulated and to a degree administered by local governments as well as the federal government.

    But again, you should repost that because, as I’ve already told you, you only have one previous post where you even used the word “Socialism,” and you weren’t defning it, unless you did so under another name.

    Fifth, if the services I listed that are regulated by the government are mostly, as you said, “for the safety of the people”, and health care is for the safety, or good, of the people (unless you are next planning to argue that health care is not for the good of the people), then why shouldn’t the fed continue to refine and improve its provisions for and regulations of it?? We’re not even arguing whether the gov should have a hand in regulating the medical industry–it’s been doing that since before the colonists called themselves Americans and gained independence from Britain (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1105&full=1) . And as far as your inference that by not having health insurance citizens of the future will be jailed, that too isn’t an argument either of us can win because as of today, there is no definite law that reforms health care as we know it.

    And finally, while Christ probably never told his flock that they should “force” people to help others, we can’t even have a serious adult debate if you are seriously contending that Jesus’ position on this would be to not help the poor who don’t have health care, and to stand up instead (as vociferously as you seem to be doing) for the wealthy.

    I’m not a Christian, at all, but there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of verses where God or Jesus told people to help those in need. Some of them are: Luke 10:30-37; Proverbs 21:13; Galatians 6:2; Romans 12:13; Hebrews 13:2; Peter 4:9; Matthew 25:35-40; Sam 2:8; Proverbs 19:17; John 3:17; James 1:27; Psalms 82:3-4; Proverbs 28:27; Timothy 6:18; Ephesians 2:10; James 2:14; and Luke 3:11.

    As far as your faith, I couldn’t care less. My argument that it is unChristian to not support health care for all, particularly the poor, was made to point out the hypocrisy of those on the Right, who claim to be the most Christian Americans America has ever produced, yet they don’t give 2 shits about poor people, people without health care, or people of color.

    And they don’t give a damn about you and me either bruh. One of us seems to understand that, while the other seems to hope he will be elected the next Michael Steele.

    • Earpiece>>>Amazing. I can feel you screaming into your monitor as you punch the keyboard with more force than Dell would ever suggest is necessary.
      Earpiece>>>
      1. You are feeling more than I am feeling,
      Earpiece>>>2. I don’t use Dell, so that reference, like most of what you telling me, does not apply

      Earpiece>>>First of all, in reading through your 5 posts on this article, you’ve only used the word “Socialist” once before your last post:
      “I am going to stop sweating this stuff, though and hope they pass the ORIGINAL socialist version. ”

      Understood. I guess you MISSED all the others. It seems this is a different blog than the one I posted to before. I know I challenged you to read ALL my post, but since I am posting to other people’s blogs and you all have your postings nestled in archives, categories and other dark places, I cannot find my own posts in a short time. For that reason I am now responding to all blogs by responding on my own and then HOPEFULLY TRACKBACKING (hasn’t worked so far) to yours. That way I can keep up with my own stuff (which, of course, if GREAT)

      If you are ever interested in FACT CHECKING me to see if I conflict myself, visit my blog and call me out on it.

      Earpiece>>>I’m sorry, but I fail to see how this constitutes the “SEVERAL DETAILED EXPLANATIONS” you clamored about in all caps.

      Point taken. Since you are not aware of my full record, I concede that point. Look out when I put them together, though.

      Earpiece>>>Second, when did I or Sundjata ask you to change your views? I believe all we’ve asked for is an intelligent and concise analysis of the right-wing’s point of view in respect to the 3 arguments I outlined earlier.

      It appears that every post you guys make refers to opposing views as UNINFORMED, STUPID or just plain wrong. Who decides what is intelligent? Concise? Why not just do as I do, take whatever comes, mull it over objectively, and then respond with my own response. I am not qualified to judge your intelligence or even the basis for your opinions. I just want to hear them and respond with my own.
      As for Sundjata, it was he who personally suggested to BLack Sentinel that, since my mind can’t be changed, she should block my posts, which she obediently complied forthwith.

      Earpiece>>>Third, (do you listen to yourself man??) you’re suggesting, I think, that Obama will increase the cost of utilities, like electricity.

      Are YOU listening to OBAMA??? He said with his own mouth that utility bills would SKYROCKET.

      Earpiece>>>One, what does that have to do with the oft-stated argument that taxes will rise as a byproduct of health care reform,

      Nothing, actually. I mention it to show that you cannot trust everything Obama tells you. They call that “Sucking up the KOOLAID”.

      Earpiece>>> and two, what source or evidence do you have that he “himself declared” this to be true? To use your own line of reasoning, just because Black Independent says it, does that make it so?

      Earpiece>>>Will you believe ME, or your own lying eyes and ears? I guess your lack of knowledge of THAT shows you are not as well versed on Obama’s policies as you thought. View the video and get back to me.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STFsToN289Y&videos=W0Pthgk9o60

      Earpiece>>>Fourth, you should definitely repost your argument on how fire depts, police depts, and schools do not fit the technical definition of socialism, which,

      It would be up to YOU guys to check your archives for that info, as I didn’t keep them. I can summarize:
      Socialistic policies and practices exist in almost every government under the Sun, but SOCIALISM is a system of GOVERNMENT (not goods and services) that imposes it’s will upon the people without allowing input or dissent, and exacting punishment for non-compliance or non-participation.

      You say you are a teacher. Do you tell your students there is little difference between the U.S. And Russia, Cuba, or Venezuela? How do you explain the difference between a REPUBLIC baed on SOCIALISM and one based on CAPITALISM, or do you discuss/acknowledge the existence of any of them?

      Earpiece>>>by the way, is defined as “any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods” (Merriam-Webster online). Hospitals and physicians, like schools, fire depts, and police depts, provide a service (not technically a “good”, nor do they technically “produce” anything) that is regulated and to a degree administered by local governments as well as the federal government.

      My point exactly! MY understanding of SOCIALISM is all the above things, PLUS, it doesn’t have to be a GOOD or a service. The salient point of socialism is the GOVERNMENT CONTROL and the LACK OF CHOICE on the part of the people, coupled with punishment for non participation or compliance. As for ownership, who owns the auto industry? most of the biggest banks? Who is telling Wall Street how much they can pay managers? Who will tell us what doctor we must see, what treatment we may or may not get, what light bulbs we must use, what healthcare program we must “Buy”, whether or not a company must allow union votes on it’s own property. The list goes on and on. Right now, the answer to most of the above is BARACK OBAMA/FEDERAL GOVERNEMNT.

      Earpiece>>>Fifth, if the services I listed that are regulated by the government are mostly, as you said, “for the safety of the people”, and health care is for the safety, or good, of the people (unless you are next planning to argue that health care is not for the good of the people), then why shouldn’t the fed continue to refine and improve its provisions for and regulations of it??

      My SEX LIFE is related to me my health. Should the government “refine and improve” that? I want bigger car and house and a couple more gold chains. What should the government do to help me with those? See, YOUR perfect world seems to be that the government take a hand in EVERY PART of my life and mine is that the government intrude as little as possible. I can handle my own health care issues, as well as the car, house and the sex.
      I would think the government MAY intervene when I NEED it’s help. Otherwise leave me the hell alone. Maybe it’s just me, but I am not accustomed to having other people or governments do things for me that I can or should do for myself. And I don’t want to help YOU with those issues unless I CHOOSE to. You don’t have health care? Food? A place to live? I MAY choose to help you or I may not. While I believe I a a better person PERSONALLY if I CHOOSE to help others, but I do not turn up my nose at those who do NOT hold that view. These choices should be left up to INDIVIDUALS. If WE don’t help, then the government MAY step in (using YOUR MONEY, I hope). I may decide that ADULTS in those positions are LOSERS who made dumb decisions and don’t deserve ANY help. Should I go to jail for that view?

      Earpiece>>>We’re not even arguing whether the gov should have a hand in regulating the medical industry–it’s been doing that since before the colonists called themselves Americans and gained independence from Britain

      Perhaps, but was government REQUIRING it, or has non-participation ever been MANDATORY or punishable by fine or imprisonment. Has it?

      Earpiece>>>And as far as your inference that by not having health insurance citizens of the future will be jailed, that too isn’t an argument either of us can win because as of today, there is no definite law that reforms health care as we know it.

      We are not debating present day law, but PROPOSED laws. While it is difficult for the public to see what is in these new bills, we have been advised that citizens who refuse to purchase health care would be fined up to $750. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/october_2009/55_oppose_penalty_for_not_buying_health_insurance

      Earpiece>>>And finally, while Christ probably never told his flock that they should “force” people to help others, we can’t even have a serious adult debate if you are seriously contending that Jesus’ position on this would be to not help the poor who don’t have health care, and to stand up instead (as vociferously as you seem to be doing) for the wealthy.
      I am not qualified to debate what Jesus THINKS, only what he SAID, and nothing he EVER said would FORCE us to help anyone, nor are there sanctions provided if we choose not to.

      Earpiece>>>I’m not a Christian, at all, but there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of verses where God or Jesus told people to help those in need.

      Well, I AM a Christian, and I read the Bible apparently a LOT more than you do, and even the passages you chose to highlight do not meet your definitions of socialism. Even with your references, Jesus never REQUIRED any such actions for salvation. It makes me feel good when I help others and awful when I am FORCED to do it. The system you purport that Jesus ordered is not charity, but robbing Peter to pay Paul. As one whose dealings with the government involve ME PAYING more than ME GETTING PAID, I resent ANY effort to increase my charity giving by governmental edict.

      Earpiece>>>As far as your faith, I couldn’t care less. My argument that it is unChristian to not support health care for all, particularly the poor, was made to point out the hypocrisy of those on the Right, who claim to be the most Christian Americans America has ever produced, yet they don’t give 2 shits about poor people, people without health care, or people of color.

      Earpiece>>>Conservative don’t care about the poor

      How would YOU otherwise know what I or any other person CARES about? Do you know what is in MY heart? I figure only JESUS knows that, and since you KNOW… Gee. maybe I’d better avoid thunderstorms or be careful what I say to you. I am a “person of color”( BTW, isn’t WHITE a color too?), so are you saying I don’t care about myself?
      You shouldn’t use a topic about which you admittedly are not well versed as a talking point. None of my Bibles indicate that Christianity is based on helping the poor. It is based on OUR BELIEF that Jesus Christ is our personal savior. All that other stuff is incidental.

      Earpiece>>>And they don’t give a damn about you and me either bruh. One of us seems to understand that, while the other seems to hope he will be elected the next Michael Steele.

      At least Michael Steele (who is TOO SOFT ON LIBERALS) is not trying to run MY LIFE. And I understand where you are coming from now. You need someone to CARE about “you and me”. Well, I can take care of myself. I don’t need conservatives, of which I am one nor Republicans (of which I am NOT), nor OBAMA to do ANYTHING for me, least of all CARE about me. If Barack Obama and the liberal Democrats are your source of sustenance and salvation, go for it. The occupant of the WHITE HOUSE is of less relevance to me than to you, I guess.
      I have no problem with that, but you seem to.

  22. “If you are ever interested in FACT CHECKING me to see if I conflict myself, visit my blog and call me out on it.” –Black Indy.

    Nope. Not really interested in attempting to visit every blog you’ve ever visited and expressed a thought on regarding health care. But I am glad that you at least recognized I/we are not the ones you’ve had however many previous discussions on this topic with.

    They say admitting there is a problem is the first step toward recovery…

  23. I watched the 8-second You Tube clip perfectly spliced to allow for no context to be gathered on Obama’s quoted sentence fragment. I also noted that the splice was put together and offered by the heavily right wing site libertyunderfire.org.

    And you posted the site merely moments after talking about the virtues of remaining “objective,” and how much better off I’d be if I had powers of objectivity akin to yours. What is this? A lesson in irony?

    • The fact that it wasn’t YOU to whom I stated an opinion does not mean the opinion wasn’t stated. I still gave YOU MY understandinhg of SOCIALISM and you still don’t understand or agree with it. As I said before, it’s not my problem.

      For one thing, the video was the first one that came up in the search. I didn’t even LOOK to see where it came from. Secondly, this video was shown all over the CONSERVATIVE media and NEVER on the LIBERAL media. What NEGATIVE VIDEOS have you EVER seen of Barack Hussein Obama on the fringe press? Not Rev Wright. Not Rev Flegler, not Joe the plumber. The fringe press that claimed less than 75000 “right wing protesters” at the Washington march last summer will NEVER show a video that reflects negatively on “the one”, so where the @$&(*&^ ELSE would I find one? Give me some INDEPENDENT sources if you can think of one. Better yet, just give me ONE source (other than FoxNews) where I can hear or see BOTH SIDES of an issue presented EVERY DAY. Just one.

      I’m glad your grandmother taught you about respecting your elders, but you needn’t patronize ME. Our discussion had nothing to do with AGE but with PRINCIPLE. I never knew MY grandmothers, but my FATHER taught me:

      1. Never ARGUE with ANYBODY. Just listen well, and state YOUR case.
      2. Never do for a man what he can do for himself
      3. If you want something soft, get someone to POOP in your hand (My daddy
      would NEVER say POOP).
      4. Going to war against EMOTION is a losing battle if truth is your ammunition.

      My case is simply this:
      I don’t believe the federal government should be allowed to confiscate my property and give it to someone else without due process of law, which is why I am fighting s hard as I can to PREVENT Obama’s plan to do just that.

      If there are 47 million uninsureds, then insure THEM, but leave me alone. Even if I must pay higher taxes, (and I will) that’s OK< just don't change MY plan, whioch is what HIS plan would do.

      If the great one can pay for his plan by cutting 500 BILLION of waste and fraud from Medicare, DO THAT FIRST and THEN turn towards ME, if necessary.

      The above paragraph requires no feedback, no discussion. No debate. It is my position and I'm sticking with it. I should have done it this way in the first place, then I wouldn't have caused such heartburn here or elsewhere.

      I am SO sorry to have wasted your time. I persoanally have ENJOYED my visits here. I THOUGHT it was for CONVERSATION and yes DEBATE, not COVERSION. You are so wrong if you think i was trying to change your mind or even if you thought I was seeking clarification.

      Just as you think it ridiculous that I suggest you believe anything from "right wing ideologues" how dumb would I be to base or change MY opinions because of what I read HERE. This is just much better than sitting around, apparently as you would prefer, and everybody nodding knowingly at everything everybody else sayd. I see how you get YOUR information, which, by the way is no less suspect than the right wingers I visit.

      As for me wasting any more of your time, please remember, it was YOU, responding to a post referring to you, that I made on another blog, that initiated our conversation in the first place. Be care ful what you ask for.

  24. And yes, “Socialism” can most definitely be defined as “a system of GOVERNMENT (not goods and services) that imposes it’s will upon the people without allowing input or dissent, and exacting punishment for non-compliance or non-participation” if by “defined” we are henceforth making it acceptable to pull definitions out of our bottoms and concurrently offering them up as facts.

    At least I offered a reliable, non-partisan source for my definition (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary). Apparently you are using “Black Indy’s Big Book of Unabridged Fightin’ Words.”

    • You sure don’t miss a chance to disparage other people, do you? Did your grandmother teach you THAT? I don’t recall dismissing any of YOUR sources. If I did it was purely unintentional. It’s like another great person once said, “when the left cannot beat you with truth, they call you names”. How true, RUSH, how true.

      Actually I don’t NEED to read anyone else’s fighting words. Fighting words are based on emotion. I don’t do emotion. Compared to me, Dr Spock is a nervous nattering nabob.

      I think I might actually be coming around to YOUR way of thinking on that SOCIALISM thing. ANARCHY is a total lack of government socialism, while APARTHEID is the ULTIMATE socialism.

      Just think of all that heartburn we endured over South Africa. We should have left those people alone to run their government as they saw fit. OH. But that was BAD SOCIALISM, huh? If the people AGREE to socialism, its not so bad. Oh, what a slippery slope we devise for ourselves.
      I guess it’s all a matter of where one draws the line, no?

      Some of us are just like the frog you put in warm water and then slowly raise the temp until froggy is completely boiled tender and then you can eat the legs. OK by me, but I don’t want the rest of you frogs to pull me into that pot with you.

      Personally, I don’t like ANY form of socialism whether it helps.
      I would prefer to have discussions where people just state their views without leaning on the views of others. One where every post is a new post and, while you can refer to other posts you may not reply to them. That way the only ideas posted would be original. I realize that most blogs would dry up under that system and I think that would probably be a GOOD thing.

  25. This is my 4th response and I still don’t know quite where to begin with you. You’re conflating things that need not be joined, and you arrive at conclusions that don’t appear to have a solid basis.

    I didn’t say I “wasn’t” well-versed in religion generally or Christianity specifically. For a time I was a religion major in college, and regularly studied both the Bible and Qu’ran.

    If I tell you “I like Hip Hop,” for instance, you can’t then write 2 paragraphs lambasting me for supporting mysoginistic lyrics or for going to 50 Cent concerts. I simply said “I like Hip Hop.” I did not say that I supported the abuse of women or was a fan of any particular rapper.

    You even quoted me as saying “Christ probably never told his flock that they should ‘force’ people to help others,” but then you summarily went on to tell me how wrong I am for suggesting that you be forced to help others, and that I am misinterpreting Christ by suggesting he argued for the use of “force” when helping others.

    You then took an even higher leap of illogic when you told me that the Bible verses I cited “do not meet the definition of Socialism.” When did I conflate the Bible with Socialism?? When did I say what Christ was teaching was parallel to Socialism? I did say Christ would support health care for all, and I based that on the wholly provable premise that in the Bible, God and Jesus are quoted ad nauseum as saying to help, stand up for, protect, and love the poor. Click on any one of the verses I cited and that will be the gist of it. If that isn’t what your Bible teaches you then I suppose you will have to continue to lean on the understanding you have. Again, I’m not passing any collection plates around for the building fund, so it really matters not.

    At this point I think I am done. I’m trying to respect you as my elder, but my grandmama told me long ago about arguing with certain people. Thanks for visiting our blog and please come back.

    • One thing’s for sure, you just don’t get it. You can respond to me SEVENFOLD and it will have the same effect. I am NOT trying to change YOUR mind or mine.

      I do not expect to get real information here that I can use to help make decisions, as every poster here has a BIAS. I am CAREFUL where I GET my information and this ain’t one of the places. This is just a place where I THOUGHT people came to express their own views and then go on down the road.

      You seem to feel that if I don’t change my mind or agree that you have found inaccuracies in my OPINION, then I am not worthy of your time. Well, I STILL say I am not qualified to say YOUR opinion is wrong and I maintain you are not qualified to so judge mine either.

      You may be right if you think we have no further need of conversation if your goal is to change my mind. You can spew all you want about where I get my information or how wrong I am about Obama, nothing will change unless I change it myself with no help from you, the fringe press or the black/white sentinel.

      If you don’t want me to post my views here, just do what every other liberal wag does when I make the fire too hot to bear. DON’T TASE ME, BRO. BLOCK ME.

      I have a long list of venues which have done just that, and I have a guidon where I display each of their pennants, kinda like TROPHIES, you know.

      In fact, I’m on a racist white blog now and for the life of me, I can’t get THEM to rant and rave at me PERSONALLY the way “da bruthas and sistas ” do. Strange world ain’t it?

    • I think it is time to end the pissing contest and start a REAL discussion on actual FACTS.

      According to that evil FoxNews and the always relevant if not watched, CNN, the healthcare reform bill to be voted PASSED this morning by the Senate Finance Committee contains a provision that will fine an employer $1000 if that employer refuses to provide healthcare insurance for it’s workers. IN MY OPINION that some employers MAY choose to accept the fine, which will be a lot cheaper than the cost of the proposed healthcare plan.

      A lot of small businesses are already struggling to VOLUNTARILY provide insurance NOW, and if a plan comes along that allows them to provide insurance and SAVE MONEY, they are going to take it and they are fools if they don’t, IN MY OPINION.

      The proposed plan also contains a provision that prohibits insurance companies from refusing to insure people with PRE-EXISTING conditions. Well even a third grade public education should help us figure out that even people who are paying thousands per year NOW would make out like a hooker at a boys camp by CANCELING their insurance and then get a policy when they get sick.

      The effect of either or both of these results would mean that the system we have in place already would explode when all those formerly insured kids have accidents, children cancer, drug problems or whatever, hit the emergency rooms and start crowding out the illegals who use that system for their healthcare now, according to the pundits and proponents.

      an unintended consequence of this new plan, IN MY OPINION would be that the resulting newly overburdened health care system will be forced to turn to RATIONING, forcing many illegatos OFF the system and likely back inot the countries from which they came.

      You know, this health care reform thing is starting to look better every day.

  26. You know something, E? You are quite correct in saying I am wasting your time AND mine with all my obstinate, racist, SELFISH non Christian attitudes (MY characterizations). I am ashamed at how I have let this “discussion” distract me from what I think is the REAL problem and solution to ALL the problems that afflict black people in the United State, if not the world.

    I wrote long ago, when I was still trying to convince myself of my own philosophy as stated above, “A black person can talk ALL DAY about what someone else is doing to him or for him but not FIVE MINUTES about what he is doing or should be doing for himself”.

    That opinion is only reinforced when I surf the web for days on end and cannot find more than a handful of sites where it is NOT the case. I found yours and other similar blogs in my search for those blogs that were focused on actually making a difference in their own lives, and instead all I found was a universe filled with whining, self victimization and racism disguised as indignant rejection of any idea that opposes the standard view that governemnt is my friend and the white man is my enemy.

    Everything is about how the white man won’t fund this or authorize that. “He won’t loan me money, he won’t sell me a house, he won’t give me a job, etc”, nothing about opportunities I should create for myself.

    I realize this is not going to change soon, but I don’t mind if I end up being the only black person on Earth who cares about that issue, I will devote MY blog ONLY to entertain the thoughts of those who wish to discuss just that; how I, as a black man, can create my o wn opportunities and not rely on whites to “CARE” for or “look out for me”.

    Maybe I can attract the ten or twelve blacks in the country who really think they have the power to build their own future and not depend upon some white guy stepping back before they can step forward, or who are not subscribers to the ridiculous notion that blacks can only move up TOGETHER.

    I realize most of those on the standard blogs will not be interested, but I am not interested in hearing anything they have to say anyway, so don’t worry about me soiling your literary doorways again. I have better things to do. Things that I have neglected and promise myself that I will no longer neglect.

    I wish you and your constituents nothing but the best of luck. If Obama gets his way, you are going to need it.

    You, however, and any of your faithful followers are free to visit my website and/or blog any time you feel you can contribute to the conversation as long as it is topical and relevant (MY definition).

    Even if your post does not pass muster, I will still read them, just like others do when they don’t like what I say.

  27. My goodness.

    All jokes and humor aside, look at what you have to go through in order to argue the untenable and inconsequential points you’re to make. With all honesty, I simply do not believe that you subscribe to even half of what you offer here. Think about what you’re saying. Jesus wasn’t an advocate of helping the poor? Look at the mental acrobatics you must go through to keep from conceding that your ideas are ahistorical, unfounded, and often egregriously erroneous.

    Man, I’m just really exhausted with the whole thing. I enjoy conversation. I enjoy a good intellectual sharpening, but we must be dealing with valid sources in order to do that, and unfortunately, no matter how much you or the conservative base want it to be true, your abstract liberalism, thinly veiled hate, and doctored democracy are illegitimate at best. Your experiences and those of your closely related situated friends are rendered illegitimate by academic research in the areas of historical analysis, sociology, economic theory, political science, cultural anthropology, and so on and so forth. Yet, do you cite reputable sources as the basis of your arguments? Not at all. Again, I’m thoroughly unimpressed with your reading resume dude.

    This is not just you though. I ask conservatives all the time where they get their information, and I have NEVER received a source beyond rasmussen reports and Fox News. We must acknowledge that political pundits are nothing more than glorified professional opinion offerers. They are not scholars, researchers, or academicians. They are unworthy of the same validation, and even with scholars, we must remember that no realm of life is outside of politics–that is, issues of power relations.

    Dear conservative friends, I would very much love to receive a bibliography or list of reputable sources that you regularly consult. I’d like to read who has informed your thoughts and opinions.

    Me, I suggest that you read:

    Anything by Patricia Hill Collins
    Anything by Douglas Massey
    Anything by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva
    Anything by Patricia Williams
    Anything by David Roediger
    Anything by Howard Zinn
    Anything by Michael Omi and/or Howard Winant
    Anything by Jonathan Turner
    …and anything by Frantz Fanon…to start.

    You may also look into the works listed in the scroll list to the upper right of this post. I would also suggest picking up a Du Bois reader.

    The aforementioned scholars have withstood the test of their peers, which, this is a fundamental difference between academic scholars and political pundits. The latter is a group of individuals paid to have strong opinions regardless of the facts, and if we parrot their ideas, whatever the ideas are, we ruin the very idea of democracy, and I would submit that we are not worth the energy it took to convey those ideas. We simply must examine issues more thoroughly, and while I always here conservatives SAY that they are catholic in their education, the evidence is simply not there.

    With that, I’m basically done with this conversation. I hope that you all continue to visit our blog (read it BEFORE making an absolutely ignorant conclusion about it). When you say something erroneous or stupid, we’ll shine a light on it, but we won’t devote nearly as much time to this tit for tat nonsense.

    Until next time, hetepu!

    • What jokes? OF COURSE I mean what I say! And it appears you are having trouble just UNDERSTANDING. Show me where I said Jesus was not an advocate of serving the poor. Never said it. Never.

      Having a conversation with ME seems to be exhausting for a LOT of you guys. I guess it must have something to do with the fact that you are all trying to change MY mind or you think I am trying to change yours. The latter is far off base and the former will never happen. Have you ever heard the expression “agree to disagree”? It could mean that people with opposing views are convinced of their own positions and agree to accept that of the other as an OPPOSING OPINION, no ore, no less. Supreme Court Justices all have access to the SAME information and hear the SAME arguments, yet FIVE of them will come to a different conlusion than the other four. Apparently every decision THEY make is ridiculous. Were you on that panel nothing would ever get done because you would spend the whloe term trying to change the minds of the ones who disagree with you.

      I can read the words of Jesus Christ, the prophet Mohammed, Bhudda, Sin Tao, Oprah, Barack, Nostradamous DAVID DUKE, and Adolph Hitler, without losing my cool or throwing something, but you can’t do that with ME?

      I have no idea what YOU mean by “abstract liberalism” Where did I indicate I HATE someone? I have stated EMPHATICALLY several times that we do not live in a Democracy, so you can’t be talking about ME.

      You keep ranting about the basis for my opinions. I don’t know how man times I have to say this, but the basis for YOUR opinions don’t mean a hill of beans to me, because I DON’T CARE. I am only interested in teh opinion, not the background. Were I trying to TEACH you something or change your mind, I would quote a reference every time ai completed a sentenc, but that is not the case. My philosophy is what I am posting here, not my research library.

      Of all the anthropologists, scientists, educators, moon walkers, and whomever else you may name, none have ever experienced MY life, and none of them will change my PHILOSOPHY, which was formed AFTER I became “educated” by my parents and my own life experiences. Sure, I was educated in public schools for a time, but for FIFTY YEARS afterwards I have been LIFE EDUCATED, and no amount of people who earn their living THINKING will be adding a lot to that NOW.

      It IS possible that FACTS may change over time, but it will take a cataclysmic event for my PHILOSOPHY to actually change. Say what you want about MY library, but your educators have had their say. I read, listened, even had conversations with many of them in class and on the street. They were the ones who originally TAUGHT me that RACISM was the reason Blacks are still in the back of the bus. It was LIFE and black folks themselves who taught me otherwise. Now, you can give me thousands of quotes from your professors, but do you have time to read all the EXPERIENCES I have had? I can hook you up.

      You keep railing against Fox and Ramussen. You’re sounding like Obama now. Anyone who disagrees is not reputable. Will you soon execute the same plan as Obama and many black bloggers and BLOCK commentary of those who disagree with you?

      I NEVER ask LIBERALS where they get THEIR information because I am not interested. It is true that Fox and Rasmussen are not scholars, researchers, or academicians. All they do is tell us what is going on in the world (Fox) and in the street (Rasmussen). The stuff your scholars, et al are saying has been out there for ages. Fox and “Raz” tell us about YESTERDAY. Most of the scholars base their information on THEORY. Those you disparage are talking about life where the rubber meets the road. Each of us can choose which place we get our information. I am not qualified to judge YOUR sources as unfit or inadequate. That is a decision YOU should be making.

      I may take your list of philosophers and actually read some of their works. Actually I read a book by Frantz Fanon many years ago, during my college years, during which I abandoned my parents’ counsel and became a flaming liberal.

      Now, how about you take a little of MY reading list. If it is not as long as yours maybe that’s because I didn’t need as much “guidance”.

      I can’t say read ANYTHING written by these people, though. That is almost like WORSHIP. There is nobody on EARTH with whom I agree on EVERYTHING. I do, however, subscribe to the GENERAL PHILOSOPHY of the following people, so all you need to do is read a few paragraphs of their BIOS on Wikipedia. See, I don’t want them to change you. I just want you to UNDERSTAND them:

      Justice Clarence Thomas
      Justice Thurgood Marshall
      John McWhorter
      Sun Tzu
      Thomas Sowell
      Walter Williams
      Ronald Reagan (The original liberal Democrat turned conservative Republican)
      Ward Connerly
      Shelby Steele
      Bill Cosby
      Sir Francis Chichester (Sailing Around The World Alone)
      John Grisham
      Edgar Rice Burroughs (I read the entire TARZAN series before I realized ERB was a BIGOT)
      Che Guevara (My original interest in FANON lead me to Che, whom I still somewhat admire)
      Barack Obama (Impressed by his speech at the Dem’s 2004 convention, I became a fan. That was soooooo long ago, it seems)

      Some titles, of which the book is more relevant than the name of the author:
      Alive, by Piers Paul Read
      The Way Things Ought To Be, by Rush Limbaugh
      To Be Loved, by Berry Gordy
      See, I told You So, by Rush Limbaugh

      As you MAY see, your list seems to provide a lot of IDEAS from which you obviously formed you opinions. My list inspired my THOUGHT PROCESS, by which I learned to develop my own ideas and thereby my opinions..
      The members of your list indeed HAVE withstood the test of time, but I don’t really base my opinions on the ideas of others. These authors, yours and mine, did not formulate my opinions and indeed had very little to do with anything other than providing insights into the personal system through which I developed ideas of my own. Until I am convinced that MY system is ineffective or not useful then I am sticking with it.

      Thank you for ALLOWING me to continue to post on your site. I will try, as always NOT to say anything “Ignorant, stupid” or otherwise insulting or hateful and if I do, please do “shine a light” on it at once. You and your visitors are just as welcome to visit and post on MY blog, but I will NEVER call you stupid, ignorant, uniformed, racist, hateful or deliberately insult your intelligence or your thought process, nor will I try to change your mind or demean your opinions if they diverge from my own.

      I will never put words in your mouth or accuse you of being less than honorable no matter how virulent our disagreement.

      • You SURE do type in CAPS a LOT Black INDY. You may not know this (I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt), but typing in caps online generally indicates rabid excitement, or seething anger. I made the earlier comment about being able to feel your rage as you type because of your overwhelming use of capitalization.

        Moving on…

        For reasons unbeknownst to me, you keep mischaracterizing Sun and I as trying to “change your mind,” or, “tell you what to think.” That’s a false assertion–we’re merely trying to better understand where some of your claims are coming from (their theoretical, historical, political, and/or economic basis).

        Your opinions are your opinions, and you will forever be entitled to them. But when you make claims that you can’t prove–and that you don’t even try to prove–Sundjata and I, because we are admittedly both academic nerds, naturally want to know where you get this stuff from. There is also a direct correlation between your claims and your opinions, so when your claims appear to be invalid, we then want to know what it is that forms the basis of your opinions.

        Idunno. Call us overly-analytical. But amongst your highly contestable (and relevant to the original article) claims are:

        “[Obama’s] original health care bill was Socialist”

        “passing healthcare reform will cause prices, taxes, unemployment, utility bills and interest rates to skyrocket”

        “None of my Bibles indicate that Christianity is based on helping the poor.”

        Perhaps you disagree, but I think it’s fair to ask a person where they’re getting their information from, and why they believe what they say they believe. Honestly, it isn’t even wholly about you. If we can better understand your rationale in theoretical, historical, economic, and/or social terms, it might help me or Sun gain new insights and see this topic in a new light. You telling us, however, that your opinions are your opinions and we haven’t a right to ask you about them (on OUR blog–all caps, I know) does more to shut down conversation rather than help us engage in it.

        • Well, EP
          Sometimes people type IN CAPS to EMPHASIZE. I could use QUOTATION MARKS if you prefer. Just LEMME KNOW. I think your name calling is just as offensive to me as caps are to you. I don’t try to get you to stop it, I just let you know how I feel about it. Can you apply that analogy to our “conversations”?

          As for your list of my “contestable” statements, I did say those things and many more and I hold to those opinions. Apparently you disagree, but you do not prove them wrong, you only offer dissenting opinions. That’s what it is all about.
          Finally, this is beginning to look like what a real debate is supposed to look like.

          I have not seen anything close to your trying to better understand me. What I have seen are your attempts to prove me wrong and call me names when I don’t come around. If, by trying to better understand me you feel you must change my mind or act as if I must change yours, then I don’t see how you can make that statement.

          Apparently academic nerds have a problem with genuine dissent, in addition to not fully understanding the meaning of opinion as opposed to statements of fact. These two are not mutually exclusive. A person can have an opinion based on errors and a person can make a bad opinion based on cold hard facts. How one processes the facts makes the difference. It does not make the opinion wrong, just based on errors. By “academic nerd “I hope that means you are just focused on the academic (research, theory, postulation, rumination, etc). If you guys are really teachers, those who shape and mold young minds, then that is scarier than Obama. He’s gonna be forgotten in ten years except in Black History Month and on April 15th, but your students will be among new leaders of this country.

          By the way, I don’t know which of you it was, but you claim you have asked many times why we oppose Obama’s plan but got no real answer? Well, I have asked why you oppose the Patriot Act and have the same result.

          I will say for what seems like the millionth time, I form my opinions based on life experience, study of the issues at hand, and personal philosophy. The only part of that area of study that is in any way debatable is the study of issues, which pass through the other two. Thus my opinions are as unique as fingerprints. Is still say you can never fully understand why I think the way I do, and you might be able to change my opinion, but only if you change my view of the issues. So far you have not done that, although you have tried mightily.

          Liken it to the global warming debate. Almost equal numbers of scientists declare for or against it. They don’t go to verbal war. They just state their opinions and that’s it. As academic nerds, you guys could learn to use a system like that. It causes less heartburn.

          Could you post that part where I said you have no RIGHT to question my opinions?

          I will, since you guys are soooooo sensitive, NEVER use caps again, although I think omitting emphasis will also lose some effect. Reading this blog it doesn’t appear to me that your statement about stifling conversation is true. lol

          Really, guys, I don’t care if you believe me or not. I don’t even care if you don’t understand, although I wouldn’t mind if you did. Funny thing, I hardly ever ask where you get your information, and I understand perfectly what you are saying. That’s because I don’t try to analyze you, just read what you say and think about it. Works for me

          I just want to voice my opinion and view that of others. Once in a while a point might come up that gives me pause, in which case I will consider rethinking an issue. For example, I have actually stated on my blog that I think we should conservatives should shut up and let Obama do whatever he wants because the people who will be hurt most are the ones who support him the most, and we shoud just save our money and buy thier stuff when they go bankrupt. Awww, shoot! Now you’re gonna ask where I got that opinion.

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